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Re: Factions

Post by Floris » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:04 am

While I do like all these optismistic ideas.. I would also say to stick with the original six for now. Too many variables means a lot more work and a lot more balancing and since this is mostly done for free with no strict schedule... Well.. Needless to say we could be waiting for 10 years if we started with all these variations of each race.

I think you also don't want to distance yourself too far from the original games, but that is just my two cents.

All these ideas are an interesting read however and could possibly be implemented into each base faction.
“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”

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Re: Factions

Post by Solethria » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:49 pm

Things like 'book friendly' are not indicators for a good/balanced game... Making Rohan and Gondor separate just because Rohan should be cavalry based and Gondor infantry based is ridiculous from a core gameplay and balancing standpoint. Rohan would still need good infantry and Gondor would still need good cavalry to have the right amount of counter options.

The base game gives every faction a unique design/strength, while maintaining build-in counters to other factions to keep everything balanced and fun. Not to say it was perfect, but it was the right mindset. Props to the developers for acknowledging this :D.
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Re: Factions

Post by Silinef » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:38 pm

Hello. I'm full of respect and admiration for your team. The job what you already done says that this project gonna be a success. By using the moment i would like to share with you my thoughts about the factions. I totaly agree with antother commentators that for such professional project we have to split up some faction to make this more matching to the books/films reality. We can have super real landscapes and graffics but without proper division faction it will looks like groats where everything for egzample Azog group with goblin king at the same castle is mixed like in some mods. If we have a chance create a new interesting factions why we can't use it? I would like to propose such factions:
-Misty mouintans (with Goblin King and goblins of Moria)
-Gundabad (with Azog)
I think people would add other new (Rhun, Angmar),but i would love to see those basic division.

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Re: Factions

Post by Slaternater2501 » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:22 pm

Iron hills
Blue mountains
Mount gundabar
Dol guldur
Goblin town
Minis mogul

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Re: Factions

Post by cElebrimbor96 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:20 am

ThaneWulfgharn wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:08 am
Hmm, I'd go for:
-Gondor (+fiefdoms)
-Imladris (+Grey Company/Dunedain, Breeland & Hobbits)
-Mordor (Orcs + Rhun + Umbar)
-Isengard (Orcs + Uruk-Hai + Dunland)
-Misty Mountains (Completely redesigned, Moria Goblins + Gundabad Orcs + some of the beasts we saw at the Hobbit series)
-Harad (Haradrim + Variags of Khand + Half Trolls of Far Harad which are removed from the Misty Mountains faction).

The main reasons for dividing the following are:
-Rohan is mainly a Cavalry faction with strategies and tactics very different from Gondor which is mostly infantry focused.

-Cultural distinctions are huge between the elves of Lorien, Mirkwood and Rivendell. Plus the necessity to include the Dunedain.

-Making the Evil factions more book-friendly and include more "The Hobbit" content. Haradrim are removed from Mordor and have their own faction, as the book states that they're mainly a Cavalry army (different strategy). Mordor has more units from Rhun and Umbar though (Wainriders and Black Numenoreans). Also remove Mumaks from Mordor, because Mordor is a zerg-ish strategy faction relying on numerical superiority (again from the books). Mumaks are a little off that track I guess.

-Put some orc unit Isengard (as a very weak and basic infantry) and some elite Dunlending one - in books Isengard also used Orcs + Dunlendings were its strongest troops.

-Misty Mountains is completely redesigned. Most of its units didn't fit with neither books nor series. Moria Orcs are low-tier spammable. They are followed by Gundabad & Dol Guldur Orcs which are stronger. Beasts of War include: Cave Trolls, Gundabad War Trolls, Northern Wargs and Mirkwood Spiders(Desing like in the Hobbit). (I really don't know about dragons, but I'd suggest replace Drogoth the Dragon Lord with Smaug). I'd remove Half-Trolls, Spider Riders and Mountain Giants. Maybe those Troll Catapults as Siege Weapons.

-No Angmar faction. As much as I love it, it's completely wrong in terms of lore. Black Numenoreans are men from Umbar (not from the North), making up elite warriors / generals of Mordor's armies. In fact, I'd suggest to make the Black Numenorians as the Mordor's Hero unit (limited to 3), and the Black Uruks of Barad Dur replacing the "Black Orcs" as elite units.

Elite Dunlendings - look like elite Celtic warriors with large shields, chaimails and bronze helmets.

Haradrim - Un-upgraded have turbans and wicker armors. Upgrade replaces wicker armors with brass scales and adds brass helmets to the turban (book description).

Variags of Khand: Since Khand supplies Mordor with the best horses I imagined them as Arabs(of the Arabian Penisula) but maybe even a little like mongols - in contrast with the Haradrims which are mostly North African(I guess Variags wore masks). But Arab elements prevailing. The colors of their clothes
could be white and black (contrast with the haradrim red). Maybe even some Mughal inspiration.

Mordor Uruks: https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/eda ... 0823153326
I agree with this and I noticed you received some of these ideas from the AGE OF THE RING mod if I'm not mistaken. Not that I have anything against that, I like what they have been doing too with that mod and it will be a great mod once finished. But yes the factions should be set up something like this, this is what the old BFME's lacked and it would be nice to see these factions in this Reforged edition.

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Re: Factions

Post by stormbringer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:31 am

Nice to see so many people being agree about the "multicultural" factions.
I think that will add a lot of fun to the game.
And for sure we will be patient, if the developers agree to go that way we can surely wait for the factions to be released one at the time.
The Middle-Earth lore is too rich just to stick with those 6 vanilla factions, and I think this game is the perfect opportunity to deliver some BIG.

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Re: Factions

Post by Elrohir » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:34 am

The problem is the balancing.

6 factions is already a big job with if we start at the same time it might be very, very long and complicated.
For Gondor ! :!:

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Re: Factions

Post by stormbringer » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:51 pm

The guys from Age of the Ring and Edain managed to do that. I dont see why it cannot be done here.

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Re: Factions

Post by MakeBFMEGreatAgain » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:24 pm

Just registered, I wanna say two things.

First, I'd really like to thank you for your devotion, your work and your ideas. All the contents you have show us looks very promising. I can only imagine the neverending hours you have spent so far and are willing to spend in the future. I hope you will keep the same motivation as long as possible. Recoding the game from scratch on a new engine will give BFME a whole new life, I am so excited about the only thought of it.

Secondly, I believe that not splitting Men into Gondor and Rohan factions would be a big mistake and I'm willing to explain and to debate. The very interest of BFME is Tolkien's world. Who can deny that the mechanics and the gameplay are (far) poorer than RTS best games such as Starcraft II, AoE or Warcraft III ? What makes BFME truely amazing is the Lord of the Rings atmosphere, the units, the maps etc... Therefore if you deviate too far away from Tolkien's work and Peter Jackson's adaptation and you lose the atmosphere there wouldn't be much left. Indeed, I think that mixing and gathering Men into one faction ruins the atmosphere of the faction. They are so different in everything: Gondor is all about stone and order, Rohan is woody and much more dynamics.
That being said, the balancing of the game should rightfully prevail but even so, there is more than enough room for two strong, well balanced and unique factions. Do not believe me? Try Edain.
However, I reckon that this is more work to already a huge huge huge amount of work. I cannot and will not argue with that since it is not I who is giving free time to the community. All I will say is that there is the possibility to release the final game in patches, faction after faction.

Open for debate and replies. ;)

EDIT: Apart from that the factions planned look fine to me.

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Re: Factions

Post by Jokuc » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:35 pm

Well the best approach for the faction question is pretty obvious to me.

Go with the 6 bfme2 factions

The simple answer is because of balancing and time. I would - just as most people here - like to see the factions split up in multiple factions. Men into Gondor and Rohan, Elves into Lorien and Mirkwood etc. However, I suggest that you do not do this for now. Having a wide selection of units and buildings for each faction is crucial. Otherwise people will end up playing predictable strategies because their options are limited.

To create a bunch of new factions takes a lot of time, you need to come up with the ideas for different units, powers and buildings, then you need to create these things while making sure everything is balanced. Because of this reason, I strongly believe it is best to start with the 6 and then split them up into different sub-factions once you've made enough material to provide players with a large variety of strategies.

I see a lot of people asking for Rohan and Gondor to be split in two because this was done in the first game, but just as with the other factions I think you should wait with this until later. It makes no sense to split up Men and not the other races.

There's also the issue regarding opinions of the people. I would assume most people are positive to a larger amount of content in the game. More heroes, units, factions, powers means more fun, right? Yeah, maybe, if they are well balanced. Regardless how well implemented new features may be in the game though, there will always be those who prefer this to be as close to the original games as possible - meaning they don't want factions that weren't in the original games. It can be a bit tricky to know how to deal with this situation but I say the best approach would be to pick a "classic" mode and a new mode with the new factions and structure in it. Or have a big poll if you absolutely only want to pick one of the options.

Lastly I would like to point out that I think you should follow the example of a lot of popular mods and - when you make the sub-factions - use the names of the areas instead of the race. For example it would be Misty Mountains instead of Goblins. For the base 6 you should create first though, just go with the standard names as the factions will have stuff from multiple sub-factions in them anyway.

tl;dr: bfme2 factions first so there will be enough content, then make sub-factions once the game has been completed. Use location names. Make a "classic" mode if some people only want 6 factions
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