Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

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Syso
Posts: 43
Location: Poland

Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Syso » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:41 pm

What u guys think about men of dale? In my opinion dwarf race should contain only dwarfs. I never liked this archers.
Maybe replace them with some dwarf unit with spears for throwing(range unit). And it will be good against monsters. Very good armor, good dmg, low range.
They can have the active ability "catch beast" which will let them throw net and stop beasts (and other units which are not more than 3 in one piece) from moving for few seconds(and if it would be possible, make dragons fall from sky and stay on the ground for a moment. But maybe it would be too op).
Like dwarfs are veterans if we talk about fighting dragons and as we can see in hobbit film the dragon has been slain by some "black spear" if i remember good. So i think the "dragon slayer unit" with spears/harpoons could be nice.
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Lostir
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Lostir » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:38 am

I'm seeing a lot of cool feedback here which i may respond to in more detail later on. But for now I want to say that this topic is really meant from a game design perspective. Meaning, if you propose a rework/replacement it's very important that you think about what effects that has on the game and the factions. I see WerewolfMoonHunter proposing a lot of new heroes and units, but it all comes from a lore standpoint and I see no gameplay taken into consideration.
Then I don't really get the meaning of this topic. As you have shown every single of this points could take a whole discussion, and if I would reply to that particular topic, my reply would get even longer as it would scrap even more topics connect to the example from you. But then it would become completly uncoordinated and far too long for a single thread. Also, I think that the premiss of this thread is wrong. As you have shown one change will affect a lot of others too, so not a single unit should be discussed out of context but a faction as a whole should be discussed in its own thread, or even larger concepts wrapping up overfaction topics.
Furthermore, the particular discussions about the replacements will depend on the actual concept of the factions and its goals. But so far we didn't get any roadmap or any other real faction design feedback and insight. We have no clue, what will happen to heroic and other units from RotWk, which alone will shake up the whole faction balance. How much of a faction will change, if there will be new or reworked heroes. All of this is necessary in my opinion before talking about balance stuff, if we don't know or haven't agreed on the actual gameplay. For example, I don't assume much of the Goblin faction will stay the same, so there is no real point on discussing balance changes.

So, I believe the things that you want to discuss are better fitted in seperate threads discussing the overall gameplay of each faction in its own thread.
By the way would it be possible to create subforums for each faction, as that would make the board overview much more easier.
What u guys think about men of dale? In my opinion dwarf race should contain only dwarfs. I never liked this archers.
Maybe replace them with some dwarf unit with spears for throwing(range unit). And it will be good against monsters. Very good armor, good dmg, low range.
They can have the active ability "catch beast" which will let them throw net and stop beasts (and other units which are not more than 3 in one piece) from moving for few seconds(and if it would be possible, make dragons fall from sky and stay on the ground for a moment. But maybe it would be too op).
Like dwarfs are veterans if we talk about fighting dragons and as we can see in hobbit film the dragon has been slain by some "black spear" if i remember good. So i think the "dragon slayer unit" with spears/harpoons could be nice.
The Men of Dale were always allied in the lore and at the battle for Erebor and Dale during the War of the Ring they fought side by side. So I think having them makes a lot of sense and is a real nice flavourable touch.

Also, the thing it is slain in the movie is called a "Black Arrow" the same as in the books, which is the actual special ability of the Men of Dale, which fits much better as it was Bard a decendant of the men of Dale and later on king of Dale, who had slain him.

Nonetheless I don't have anything against spear throwing dwarves.

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Solethria
Posts: 255

Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:22 am

@Lostir

Reforged is based on bfme2 1.09. That's the starting point for the game, so that's also the starting point for this topic. If you want to propose more changes within the same faction, sure why not. Yes it might be a bit more complicated. That entirely depends on the things you want to see changed and for what reasons. The point of this thread is to think like a game designer and from that point come up with changes just like the Reforged devs have to do (but maybe we think of things they haven't thought of yet) and create almost ready to go concepts.

So, for example, if you want to change more units within the same faction like you mentioned for Angmar, you're really looking to change the playstyle of that faction and what makes it unique (except if you just want reskins from for example trolls into men that work exactly the same statwise).

If by my half-troll example the game loses a unique unit that can't be trampled and doesn't deal pike revenge damage, maybe you can think of a more lore friendly unit that does that? Or maybe you can think of an entirely new unique interaction. That's what i tried to point out. By Reforged game design, every unit must have a place within the faction and the game. There are no filler-ups.

Not that this is required, but i think if you really want to get a stong point across for a certain unit or faction, then just take your time to work that idea out and post them seperately when you've done that. Its not like we have to have answers tomorrow, we have some time here ;)

Hope that this better explained the angle I am trying to get at with this thread.
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Zagloba
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Zagloba » Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:11 pm

In this moment only one thing comes to my mind: replace weird elephant pig mutants from Dvarven chariots and battering rams with these giant rams from Hobbit movie. Thay look totally weird and don't fit at all.
Last edited by Zagloba on Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Solethria
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:41 pm

Zagloba wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 4:11 pm
In this moment only one think comes to my mind: replace weird elephant pig mutants from Dvarven chariots and battering rams with these giant rams from Hobbit movie.
Yes i agree, would be a shame not to use the new imagery of the battlewagon. (Spiked weels, Giant rams. I like it)

Maybe even make one of the battlewagon upgrades like the crossbow gun that Balin shoots in the movie? Could replace the men of dale upgrade maybe.
Lostir wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:38 am
By the way would it be possible to create subforums for each faction, as that would make the board overview much more easier.
Yes something like this might be good. I have plans to further diversify the structure of the forums. I have some ideas for this, I might also throw some ideas in a thread to see what the community would like to see. Will take your idea into account with that.
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MrGreen
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by MrGreen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:06 pm

In the following, I would like to give my opinion on some things that bother me the most. Also I would like to address some good improvements.

Angmar:
  • I am not even sure whether Angmar is being made or not. In my opinion Angmar was always weird. Don't get me wrong, it was always fun to play, but the most time I only played rotwk, when I wanted to be Angmar.
Orcs:
  • The Half-Trolls:
    Lostir wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:14 am
    Their design was rather bad and they completly invented by the game.
    That's not completely true. Yes, the Half-Trolls were barely mentioned by Tolkien, but that does not have to be a bad thing because this leaves more room for speculation and interpretation. I really liked the way the old games put them into effect.
  • Spider Riders:
    They are really unique and for me, they are just adding positive to the game experience.
  • Drogoth:
    In my opinion it would be cool to keep him. He could be a dragon who subjugated some orcs and made them fight for him. We know from Smaug that he did not do that. So replacing Drogoth through Smaug wouldn't be lore friendly, too. However, to see both of them (maybe through a spell) would be cool.
  • Great Goblin:
    WerewolfMoonHunter wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:01 pm
    • Gorlig- at first, don't give him thsi scropion to ride. It was wierd and not connected with lore. And his skills should be more supporting for allied units.
    [...]
    • Great Goblin (pleas: make him the same like in movie)
    It would be best, if Gorkil would be replaced . His design is really out of place.
Isengard:
  • Lumber Mill:
    The best solution would be to give only Isengard this building. It is really boring to have the same building in three factions. Or at least make them different looking.
  • Fortress:
    Lostir wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:14 am

    I also disliked the Isengard fortress as it resembels far too much the Orthanc which should be a unique building. While it is great to implement the style of the Orthanc in the fortress, the Orthanc was nothing Isengard build in the time it was Isengard. And all the other buildings have a completly different look. The Battle for Middle-Earth I citadel made a much better job at representing such a building. Also the Wizard Tower expansion makes no sense as it is basically a second Orthanc, which should be unique.
    In my opinion it is cool to have a distinctive style for this building. Even the Wizard Tower is not too much in my view. It is good to have characteristics to recognise a faction directly.
Elves:
  • Malorn Tree:
    WerewolfMoonHunter wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:01 pm
    Malorn trees should have been changed. I mean elves should have some kind of farms too. And Malorn Trees should be something like Elvish statue
    I like the Mallorn Trees - they show that the elves live in close touch with nature. I would just keep them with their current function.
Dwarfs:
  • Forge Works:
    In my opinion it was really boring to have one building for that much functions.
    WerewolfMoonHunter wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:01 pm
    Here I would change one thing. I mean, now after Hobbit, we have better look at "oryginal" dwarfen architecture, and I think all, or almost all buildings should be rechange to make them look more like Erebor in movie.
    I think it would be nice to use a building like the attached for upgrading armor and weapons.
  • Twirly Whirlies (Anti-Arrow Machines):
    I like the the general idea of having these in the game, but I think it's hard from a balancing point of view. So they should shoot with long reloading time and allow some arrows to fly by (e.g. rnd. between 20% to 40%).
  • Men of Dale:
    Syso wrote:
    Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:41 pm
    What u guys think about men of dale? In my opinion dwarf race should contain only dwarfs.
    I think so, too. The fact that you have Axe Throwers makes them superfluous. For balancing reasons Axe Throwers should probably be more expensive and have more health. As allied units, only for Inns, Men of Dale are very fitting.
Image
Last edited by MrGreen on Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Syso
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Location: Poland

Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Syso » Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:17 am

MrGreen wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:06 pm
As allied units, only for Inns, Men of Dale are very fitting.
And thats a great idea! Inns or powers from palantir. Yes yes. That is the place for them :)
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Hadafang
Posts: 5

Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Hadafang » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:53 pm

Hey everyone,

Before I give my thoughts I just want to say I'm so excited about this and really so grateful to all of you working on this project. I have my BFM2 and ROTWK games, all CDs not scratched, but am unsure if I can download them to a new computer and play the games (against the computer) because of the whole key code thing. I've been reminiscing about the good ol' days and dedicating hours upon hours to playing online and truly believe these RTSs are some of the best ever conceived.

Only learning today that you guys are doing this from scratch and trying to bring it back into our lives literally has genuinely brightened my mood and made me happy at work. I'm just so pumped for it.

Thus, I begin:

IMO the units we've had are fine, as well as the buildings. Of course it'd be nice to see more detail, but if that makes the game unplayable because it's so much data, not worth too much trouble.
Some add ons here and there but in general, it's fine.

I think much of what was made, really, was fine. Perhaps there could be some changes. I love where everyone's head is at in terms of adding units or heroes based on lore but, I don't think we can get too intense here.

Mordor: Add Gothmog.

Men: Add Beorn, "skin changer"

Elves: Get rid of Glorfindel, add a young Elrond or Gil Galad. And it would be cool to have the units from the First Alliance, (opening scene of LOTR the Fellowship) with those dope long swords. I know ROTWK had the Noldor Warriors which were essentially this guys but, they were elite units. Something I personally wasn't a fan of. I'll get to that in a bit.

Isengard: Don't see much to change

Dwarves: Add Thorin. Scrap the battle wagons and PLEASE put in the cavalry units from the Hobbit, the dwarves riding the Rams.

Goblins: Add Smaug and Azog. But, surprised everyone has so much to say about the Goblins! I think their units were fine!

Angmar: Don't care, never played with them, whatever you guys decide I'll be happy with.

What I would like to see is going back to the BFME2 style of unit building, meaning, more units. I remember when I got ROTWK I was upset they cut the unit number of what appeared to be almost every unit in every faction. Terrible.

Additionally to my point, and I'd love to hear what the rest of you think, the reduction of unit size was especially frustrating with the "elite" units that came with ROTWK. Example; the Zealots from the Dwarves. "their weakness to arrows and low number of soldiers in a unit lessen their usefulness on the battlefield by a significant amount. Their Axe Throw and Beserker Frenzy abilities help, but don't quite make up for it." This I got from another forum but is essentially what I think.

The "elite" units were cool but I would hope in this reforging they actually act as elites. Similar to how, for my Starcraft players :) , how the Dark Templars were actually useful once created.

Anyway, again, very happy with what you guys are doing, happy to go into depth more on my ideas if anyone has any thoughts about it, and I look forward to reading and hearing more!

Cheers everyone!

-Fang

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Solethria
Posts: 255

Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:27 pm

Hey man! Welcome to the forum and the project that is BFME: Reforged. Good to hear you're as excited as we are :D
Hadafang wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:53 pm
but am unsure if I can download them to a new computer and play the games (against the computer) because of the whole key code thing.
There is a program where you can get a new code, which you can find here https://www.gamereplays.org/community/i ... ic=1006906. Heck, I can even provide you with keys for both games since I already have the program installed. Hit me up with a PM if you want that.
Hadafang wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:53 pm
What I would like to see is going back to the BFME2 style of unit building, meaning, more units. I remember when I got ROTWK I was upset they cut the unit number of what appeared to be almost every unit in every faction. Terrible.
Well, I'm sorry to break the news to you then, but the Reforged project is going with horde sizes of bfme1, meaning smaller hordes. The armies are still going to be large like bfme2 though. There are very good reasons for this choice, since Reforged will have realistic unit collision and no stacking units. Also the goal is to never have units in a horde idle in the back like what happened a lot with the BFME games. After the closed beta we can be more specific about this when it comes to gameplay.
Mordor: Add Gothmog.
Gothmog was in ROTWK so we might see him in Reforged also.
Men: Add Beorn, "skin changer"
I don't know what faction I would like him to be in, but I do like him as a hero though.
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Zagloba
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Zagloba » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:33 pm

I think that the ranged units should have total war-like range indicators, allowing to use them more properly and make the game more understandable and player-friendly.
Image
In my opinion, foot archers as well as ranged cavalry (if Rohan will be added) should have a melee fight option available, making them a bit more realistic - even an elvish archer would try melee fighting if charged by enemies. This makes some sense, aint it?
Also, the Hobbit inn unit is just extremely weak, losing to every enemy horde, even to the weakest of orcs. Their stone throw ability is quite powerful, but their battalions are too small for it to make any difference. I think that they should still be available to recruit from the inns, but there should be also a second recruitment option for the Men of The West. I just don't know what this should be :? . Also, our Hobbits can be creeps in Shire maps, guarding special buildings and being aggresive to Evil fractions' units.

I have also one more question: are you adding Rohan? Because for me, Men of The West fraction is just Gondor able to recruit Rohirrims and do some serious hero spam with all of Rohan heroes. My postulate is to bring the old Rohan back!
Last edited by Zagloba on Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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