Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

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Solethria
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Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:31 pm

Hey guys, I realized that since I became a mod I haven't put out as many discussion topics and ideas of my own, so let's get back to that.

Everyone loves the BFME games for different reasons. Some like it for its gameplay, some like it just for the sake of being in the LoTR universe, some know more about the lore and really care about that, some don't know as much and like the game just for being a fun game. The list could go on and on... All valid reasons of course :)

What I'm interested in, are there any units/heroes/buildings etc. you did not like in bfme2 and would like to see replaced/reworked? And why is that? Was it the power level, was it because it doesn't fit the lore? I'm curious. Please keep in mind that your ideas must have a place within the game and balance, as this is very important to the Reforged project.

This thread is meant from a game design standpoint, meaning that you should try to propose a near finished concept (which we can then possibly discuss further). Keep in mind what impact your idea has and how it will fit in the game/faction.

Let's discuss! Here's a format:
  • What unit/hero/building/etc. would you like to change? Why?
  • Do you want it to be removed completely or reworked?
  • What replacement/rework do you propose? (details)
Who knows, maybe your ideas spark inspiration within the Devteam and your idea ends up making it into the game? I know the team has questions about spider riders for example. I like them even though it might not be lore friendly. But can you come up with something new and even convince me?
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echo
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by echo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:21 pm

So one thing that I didn't like about BFME 2 was that for the Goblin faction they invented a whole new creature (to the fullest of my knowledge) that was never in Tolkien's book, or anywhere else really: The Mountain Giant.
The reason I would like to see this unit reworked it because it was out of place in lore and in game play, as it could also be used as a melee unit or a ranged very quickly and easily. This made it impossible to swarm or destroy as one would with a normal catapult.

The fix I propose is very simple and easy, to simply replace the the Mountain Giant with a troll that has a catapult mounted on it (as seen in the 3rd Hobbit movie). I would also like to see this unit NOT be able to use melee, as that lead to it being out of place and overpower in my opinion in BFME 2 (and I believe that the catapult units shouldn't differ that much from faction to faction)

Sincerely,
Echo
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Lostir
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Lostir » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:32 pm

Buildings:
I really disliked all the buildings with the pools of mud like the Mordor Orc Pit and the Giant Lair of the Goblin Faction. The evil creatures being created from mud feels just so wrong.
I also disliked the Isengard fortress as it resembels far too much the Orthanc which should be a unique building.

Units:
All of those troll-hordes like Angmars Snow and Hill Troll hordes or the Halftroll Swords and Pikemen of the goblins. The former were absolutly unfitting to be in battalions as they are wild beasts and the design of the latter is just horrible in my opinion. I think, Angmars units should just be made single more powerfull monsters and the Half-trolls should be removed to give more space for more interesting creatures or units from Goblin-Town and Gundabad.
I also disliked Barrow Wights as they have hardly anything in common with what they should stand for. There design should be reworked.
Spider Riders are the next unit that feels completly out of place, as well as Gorkil riding a giant Skorpion. The skorpion never appears anywhere in the lore, and the spiders are thinking being who wouldn't let anyone ride them at all. Also a faction like goblins definetly doesn't need any ranged cavalry. So just remove them to get space more other interesting units and beasts. And I wouldn't be sad if Gorkil disappears, too.
And I dislike the Uruk Death-Angels as they seem completly unfitting for Isengard. Instead I would add shield bearers.
And from RotWk I disliked Morgramir, he just seemed like a really bad character. Just remove that character entirerly and replace him with a no-name generic Nazgul for Mordor and a human for Angmar.
Rogash is really crinshy too, the way he is. Personally I'd really love to see some inspirations taken from Edain for Angmar as the faction got a completly new and unique feeling with Edain with everything feeling part of a whole.
And I think Drogoth should be replaced by Smaug.
The mini dragons of the Goblins are also weird, as there shouldn't be that many dragons available as well as dragons not appearing in hordes.
The name of the Ivory Tower is a bit weird in German, because there is an idiom "sitting in an ivory tower", which means to be completly isolated and ignore everything around oneself. It might fit for Denethor but is weird nonetheless.
The same with the literal translation of Cloud Break into German, which more or less means a really strong pour down. So having a different name for that in a german translation would be great.
While the Bomb-Throwers of Umbar are definetly a fun unit, they don't make that much sense in my opinion. The same for the troll-suicide ship.


Mounted Archers in general should only be available for factions with either a focus on archery or cavalry, as those are pretty strong and specialized units and shouldn't be available for any faction. That would also increase faction diversity.

And maybe really controversial, but I always disliked the Wizard class from the CaH mode. Wizards were few and not even allowed to use their abilities, so that class is completly nonsensical. Strong magic should be reserved to a couple of few known legendary heroes and not some unknown self-created hero.
So one thing that I didn't like about BFME 2 was that for the Goblin faction they invented a whole new creature (to the fullest of my knowledge) that was never in Tolkien's book, or anywhere else really: The Mountain Giant.
The reason I would like to see this unit reworked it because it was out of place in lore and in game play, as it could also be used as a melee unit or a ranged very quickly and easily. This made it impossible to swarm or destroy as one would with a normal catapult.
Mountain Giants are from the Hobbit. If I'm not mistaken they are mentioned as legendary being the same as lindwyrm, and also there is the scene where they are attacked by Giants on the high pass, which where a lot more human like than the movies or games do depickt them.

The fix I propose is very simple and easy, to simply replace the the Mountain Giant with a troll that has a catapult mounted on it (as seen in the 3rd Hobbit movie). I would also like to see this unit NOT be able to use melee, as that lead to it being out of place and overpower in my opinion in BFME 2 (and I believe that the catapult units shouldn't differ that much from faction to faction)
This unit as well as most other "inventions" from the Battle of the Five Armies are for me an absolutly no-go. Not only are they completly unfitting for a wild and suposedly unorganized goblin army as the faction is set and the goblins are described in the book, but that catapult doesn't even make any sense. Having it at the back of a moving creature like a troll would make aiming almost impossible as that troll would likely constantly move.

Please, please, please don't add any of those catapult trolls, stupid ambutated trolls or nonsensical dwarven anti-arrow machines. Those are far worse than everything BfME has ever done.

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Solethria
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:42 am

echo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:21 pm

The reason I would like to see this unit reworked it because it was out of place in lore and in game play, as it could also be used as a melee unit or a ranged very quickly and easily. This made it impossible to swarm or destroy as one would with a normal catapult.
I looked this up once and I think that the concept of giants was rather vague and open for interpretation. It would've been a possible creature is what I remember from the opinions.
echo wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:21 pm
The fix I propose is very simple and easy, to simply replace the the Mountain Giant with a troll that has a catapult mounted on it (as seen in the 3rd Hobbit movie).
I wouldn't mind the catapult troll actually, I think it's a neat and possible good replacement if we were to replace the mountain giants. But I think mountain giants were more fitting and balanced than you make them out to be. They cost way more than any catapult from the other factions, they can't be upgraded, you need a level 3 cave for them. I think this all makes up for them having a melee possibility. Why is it that you think catapult units shouldn't differ that much? That seems like a pretty limiting thought. I like that factions are unique in these ways.


@Lostir Alright it seems like you are 200% a lore guy :shock: Every single unit I like most in the game just got destroyed haha.

I gotta be honest with you, even though lore and realism might be important I think you go a little far with it. A game should always be open to fun, new and useful creativity beyond the source material. Some of these units in my opinion fit really well into the balancing of the game and are part of what makes the factions unique (in playstyle!). Personally, I couldn't care less if a creature is supposed to 'be wild'. You name so much so quickly that it's hard to take anything specific away from it when talking good, fitting replacements that remain the unique playstyle the removed unit had (and the factions need). Love the input but I much rather see a more well thought idea like how Echo explained himself.
Mounted Archers in general should only be available for factions with either a focus on archery or cavalry, as those are pretty strong and specialized units and shouldn't be available for any faction. That would also increase faction diversity.
Isn't this already the case? Apart from the opinion that spider riders are out of place, they are the only mounted archer unit from the evil factions for example. They were weaker than any other cavalry but did have the ranged option. This was also really important since the normal archers from goblins were also really weak (as intended). There really is much more to all these units when considering the balance of a faction as a whole.
Lostir wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:32 pm
Please, please, please don't add any of those catapult trolls, stupid ambutated trolls or nonsensical dwarven anti-arrow machines. Those are far worse than everything BfME has ever done.
So many new cool stuff, man I really think it's a shame you limit your imagination to only the books and what should be considered 'realistic interactions'. I find these to be rather awesome and I think some of them could find a place within the game as well.
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Syso
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Syso » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:01 am

Solethria, you are completely right. The giants, spider raiders are one of my favourite units because they look different from the others and they really fit to goblins. What about the lore - the world which Tolkien designed is enormous and the creatures and stories mentioned in books can be only a really small part of the whole. I would appreciate new things which ofcourse would be related with the world.
One thing that i will always push for is faction diversity. In my opinion its crucial if u want to make races feel different, interesting. Make each one of them complete new story if we talk about mechanics, tactics, the way of creating advantages etc. I mean that wasnt even bad on bfme 2 but its most important for me, thats why i mentioned it.
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Lostir
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Lostir » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:14 am

I gotta be honest with you, even though lore and realism might be important I think you go a little far with it. A game should always be open to fun, new and useful creativity beyond the source material. Some of these units in my opinion fit really well into the balancing of the game and are part of what makes the factions unique (in playstyle!). Personally, I couldn't care less if a creature is supposed to 'be wild'. You name so much so quickly that it's hard to take anything specific away from it when talking good, fitting replacements that remain the unique playstyle the removed unit had (and the factions need). Love the input but I much rather see a more well thought idea like how Echo explained himself.
While lore and realism are important to me, I compleltly understand that in a game there have to be priorities on gameplay. There can be things that are simplified expanded or represented in a different way for game reasons, nonetheless Nonetheless descisions should be coherent and fit a basic guideline.
Concerning lore.
There is quite a lot of difference between the variet approaches how to fare with lore and content.
Of course I have no problem with something that is mainly true to lore. Nonetheless there can also be things that might have been there, but were just not named for one reason or the other, but thematically and logically fit in, as Lurtz and Sharku, Tauriel(without the love story) or the Mordor Slaughterhouse.
Then there is the approach of slightly different what ifs. Descions or actions that were possible but just weren't taken in the original but still would make sense. For me that is something like Haldir in Helms Deep. These are really important for a game, because players don't want to just replay the actual story but engage in a lot of What-if scenarios. Giving the ring to different heroes might be one of them.
What I dislike are clear violations to the rules of the universe or actions that invalidate major parts of the lore and history. Or if something just completly breaks with the thematic.

So, if my feedback above was too short, I will give it in more detail:
  • I really disliked all the buildings with the pools of mud like the Mordor Orc Pit and the Troll-Cave of the Goblin Faction. We know that evil creatures bred just like the good one and the creation from mud was a simplification from the movies for Isengards speed breeding. In this case, I think it is ok for Isengard to have it, but other factions definetly shouldn't have such breed pots of radioactive shining mud, like the Troll-Cave or the Mordor Orc Pit. Mordor should get a regular barracks or army tent instead and the Goblin faction a real Troll-Cave.
  • I also disliked the Isengard fortress as it resembels far too much the Orthanc which should be a unique building. While it is great to implement the style of the Orthanc in the fortress, the Orthanc was nothing Isengard build in the time it was Isengard. And all the other buildings have a completly different look. The Battle for Middle-Earth I citadel made a much better job at representing such a building. Also the Wizard Tower expansion makes no sense as it is basically a second Orthanc, which should be unique.
  • The Half-Trolls of the Goblins. Their design was rather bad and they completly invented by the game. Also powerfull being like halftrolls should be part of hordes, but single units. I'd suggest just replacing them by better armoured Gundabad Goblins with swords and spears, which would just fit the same niche be more lore accurate and introduce elements from the movies.
  • Angmars Trolls were also a real pain. First of all their designs were weird and didn't really looked like any trolls we have seen so far, which might be ok for the Snow Trolls but not for the Hill Trolls which are far too much linked to other trolls we have seen. Furthermore both of them should never have been a unit in battalions as trolls are not made for something like that and in battalions they were far weaker than normal trolls. Just give them a less cartoonish design (might even use some of the Hobbit Troll armours for them) and make them single units. If there is need for a battalion of Anti-Cavalry units just give them to the Dark Men.
  • Please rename the Dark Numenors of Angmar to just Dark Dunedain. It makes no sense for having that many of them in the North.
  • I also disliked Barrow Wights as they have hardly anything in common with what they should stand for. There design should be reworked. They aren't just ghosts, but we have a clear description from the books for them which looks a lot more amazing (just look at Edains implementation). I don't see any reason to keep their current design.
  • Morgramir is a really bad character. He never had any real identity except some bad quotes and looked completly unnatural. Being supposed to be a Nazgul, but having a physical body in Angmar made no sense either, in particular as the Witchking looked like during the LotR. If you like the name, keep it for Mordor, but replace the whole character for Angmar by a real human.
  • Rogash is really crinshy too, the way he is. He is nothing more than a bad meme and it feels just awfull to play him. Personally I'd really love to see some inspirations taken from Edain for Angmar as the faction got a completly new and unique feeling with Edain with everything feeling part of a whole.
  • Spider Riders are the next unit that feels completly out of place, as well as Gorkil riding a giant Skorpion. The skorpion never appears anywhere in the lore, which might not be a problem by itself, but there is a reason, why the spiders are such large creatures, while there is none for a scorpion and scorpions aren't even normally living in the area the goblin faction takes place. Also, it is completly unreallistic thinking beings like spiders would allow any goblin to mount them. That makes absoultly no sense so far. Besides there is no reason for the Goblins to have a unit like that. Just give them Warg Riders like seen in the books and movies, which fit a lot better, as the goblins were actually allied to the wargs. Gorkil personally doesn't feel like such a deep and interesting character either. So, I would just replace him by the Moria Chieftain from the books.
  • And I dislike the Uruk Death-Angels as they seem completly unfitting for Isengard. They aren't based on any source material from the movies or books and neither fit the whole style of Isengard themselves. Additionally the word "Angel" doesn't even make sense. Instead I would add shield bearers a unit that fits isengards playstyle and played a role in the movies.
  • And I think Drogoth should be replaced by Smaug. I don't have much in particular against Drogoth but Smaug would be a much cooler character and Drogoth would be just too similar to it.
  • The mini dragons of the Goblins are also weird, as there shouldn't be that many dragons available as well as dragons not appearing in hordes. Dragons should if they play a part in the faction be much more single and stronger units.
  • The name of the Ivory Tower is a bit weird in German, because there is an idiom "sitting in an ivory tower", which means to be completly isolated and ignore everything around oneself. It might fit for Denethor but is weird nonetheless.
  • The same with the literal translation of Cloud Break into German, which more or less means a really strong pour down. So having a different name for that in a german translation would be great.
  • While the Bomb-Throwers of Umbar are definetly a fun unit, they don't make that much sense in my opinion. The same for the troll-suicide ship. Those ammuniations don't make much sense any way, and the troll suicide ship looks just goofy, while the idea itself isn't that unfitting.
  • Catapult trolls are just a absolutly stupid idea and implementation in the movies. While it can make sense to carry the siege engines on the back for walking in uneven tunnels, operating them from the back makes no sense in any direction. First of all having something that needs precisions tied on a being that isn't that intelligent and won't stop slightly moving, turing and shaking is a bad idea first of all. I don't know about which version we are speaking exactly as there is the one shown above and the one with the goblin crew, so lets talk about both:
    • The one above makes definetly no sense. We have a troll that has to be have enough of a crooked back while firing that he can't actually see much of what he is aiming for. Seondly he can neither reload himself, nor adjust the angle or anything as he just pulls the release. And don't ignore the recoil he must have when shooting the stones, which will likely make him miss anything, if he doesn't just fall down.
    • The one actually shown in the movies has a couple of advantages, because it is more stabile and has an actual crew. Nonetheless the crew is seated that high on him that they won't be able to get any new stones at all, without serious troubles. Also the shaking still happens, and as there seems to be no way of adjusting the angle and direction without moving the whole troll (an actual giant stupid troll), it is hardly practical. Furthermore it seems to be far too large for the game.
  • Dwarven Anti-Arrow machines aren't realistic in any way either in my opinion. First of all they were only effective in the movie, because Thranduil was stupid enough to let his archers fire a second salvo and then stopped them from shooting arrows at all. If he just ordered them to fire at will, only a small friction of the actual arrows would have been intercepted at all, (if those machines were even working). This would be the same in the game. The next problem is that they would take far too long to reload to be actual effective. We haven't seen any magazine in the movie, so we have to assume they have to be reloaded each time, which takes a lot longer than a bow to be fired. But the biggest problem is that those are machines that are trying to shoot something in mid air. Even if they are perfectly aimed, which is basically impossible, without having a lot of parabolic tabulaes there for aiming, the time interval when they have to shoot to get a salvo is incredibly short. So lets finally talk about the aiming. They have to know previously how high of a curve the enemy is going to shoot, and have to calculate the exact flying curve to intercept them if shot perfectly. Add to that that they even target the elven army with maximum impact, that is even further impossible.

On of the remaining questions is, how the Goblin faction will be thematically based. So far it is a wild faction including goblins and their potential allies or just beasts that pose a thread for the free people without being in any alliance except themselves. In such a scenario of wild units and beasts, having forged armour for trolls is quite unlikely in particular in larger numbers, the same as catapults on the back of trolls. And having ambutated trolls with protheses is even more far fatched and ridiculous.
In this case if you want to add some of the designs and armours (without the most stupid things), just give them to Angmar to replace their trolls.
On the other hand, if the goblins are a faction let by the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, having a more organized and structured army makes sense, as well as armor for trolls, or someone who is able to create a catapult specific for trolls (not that it would work now either). Though this should mean no Giants, no Watcher, no Balrog and no other Dragons but maybe Smaug. It might be a large derivation from Tolkien's works, but if you do it right and better than the movies it might actually work and create an interesting What-If scenario, even though I'm a much bigger fan of the current goblin faction under goblin leadership.

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Syso
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Syso » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:42 am

Lostir, i dislike the anti-arrow machines and catapult trolls too but everything else is fine. For example spiders are awesome creatures and even its strange to ride them, it makes the goblins more special.
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WerewolfMoonHunter
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by WerewolfMoonHunter » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:01 pm

Okay. So I will wrtie Fraction and I will write what I thing should be changed/removed/added.

Gondor

Buildings:
For me Gondor buildings are mostly okay. I mean it's hard to find something to change, but... maybe their barracks. I mean, I like them but they should be little bigger and more complex, becouse right now this version looks like sombody cut one part of the building from another.

Units:
Here, almost everything is okay. If I could change something it would be Rohan Peasants. If Rohan will not be split from Gondor at BFME Reforged, they sould have better look. At RoW they had to cartoon look and they should look more like at BFME I

Heros:
I know that Gondor have many heros but... ther are many guys form book which should be at this game as Gonor heros. Her is a list:
  • Beregond
  • Imrahil
  • Halbarad
And more

Elves

Buildings:
Their buildings were mostly okay but... for me ther were too simple. Elves had much more beautyful and interesting architecture. Thats why I think:
  • Elvish barracks should have more decoration details
  • Elvish fortress should be change and look more like buildings in Lorien
  • Malorn trees should have been changed. I mean elves should have some kind of farms too. And Malorn Trees should be something like Elvish statue
  • The Mirror of Galadriel should not be like healing well anymore. It should be only some kind os special building for Galadriel only, and elves should have they own healing well.
Units:
Elvish units were okay, but Lorien Warriors and Elvish Archers should have... I don't know, better looking armour. I mean: ealier they were looking like they run to fight in pajamas.

Heros:
Here I must say that elvish herso are mostly okay, but again ther are some important characters, which should be added to this game:
  • Cirdan
  • Elledan and Elrohir
  • Rumil and Orophin
And more

Dwarfs

Buildings:
Here I would change one thing. I mean, now after Hobbit, we have better look at "oryginal" dwarfen architecture, and I think all, or almost all buildings should be rechange to make them look more like Erebor in movie.

Units:
Here everything is okay but pleas: don't give them anti-arrow machines!!!!!

Heros:
Here I will not write too much to becosue I know that they are problems now to decide in which part of time the dwarfs will be put, so I will not write anything here.

Mordor:

Buildings:
Mordor buildings are mostly okay, but..... some of them looks like weak, wooden constructions. And we should remember that thye used caves, and ruins of ealier buildings too. So maybe you should make something like this here?

Units:
Here I would not change much but... Mordor was using not only orcs and beasts but humans and ghosts too. So I would like to see more human units and some kind ghosts units.

Heros:
Mordor heros are okay for me so I will not write her anything.

Isengard:

Buildings:
Here I agree with Lostir. Isengard fortress don't look good. It looks like to much like Orthranc. I agree for bulding made from iron but it should bu mush simple and not so.... modern. Other buildings are okay.

Units:
Here is very big mistake. In movie we see that Saruman was usnig only Uruk-hai and Wild humans. But army of Isengard in book was much more mixed. He used traitors from Rohan, goblins from Misty Mountains, half-orcs, bandits and mercenaries. And I would like to see more units like this.

Heros:
Isengard heros... they are okay but I would like to see more of them.
  • Ugluk
  • Mahur
  • Bill Ferny
  • Lotto Sackville-Baggins


Goblins:

Buildings:
Goblin buildings in oryginalgame look too good. I mean they buildings should look more primitive. Caves, tents, shelters, and simple constructions.

Units:
Here almost everything is okay. I would replaced half-trolls and give here some stronger orc's or urks. They should have wargs units too. And I really like one idea which I saw at third part of the Hobbit movie (I don't speak about giant goblins and this too op trolls!). I mean here this scene of fight bettwen Dwalin and Thorin vs goblins. They see all bunch of small, strange looking goblins. They called them "mercenary goblins" or something like that. And I think it's good idea to add them.

Heros:
And here we start reall fun. All goblin heros should be rechanged and remake.
  • Gorlig- at first, don't give him thsi scropion to ride. It was wierd and not connected with lore. And his skills should be more supporting for allied units.
  • Azog- he should be like at the movie. Big, strong and dangeros. I remember that in oryginal BFME I almost never used him. So he need new look and new skills.
  • Shelob- she is okay, but here skills... she should be present as old and strong spider which creat fear at hart even the braves man. (And no! Pleas not make here like in Shadow of War. If you do this I will find all of you and kill you!)
  • Drogo- he should stay as he was
Many heros should be added to goblins like:
  • Great Goblin (pleas: make him the same like in movie)
  • Smaug
  • Bolg
Angmar

Buildings:
Angmar buildings are okay. I like them but....
  • Temple of Twilight- it should in look be more connceted with Barrow Hills. Mysterious fog around, and some enslaved souls in it.
  • Dark Iron Forge- it looks good but... it looks like a garage with a heater. I mean, it's not bad, but some extra parts of the building like extra magazine at the back. Some machines parts around it.


Units:
Angmar units are mostly okay but:
  • Snow and Hill trolls should have big rework. The have too cartoon look,a nd they look be too weak for me.
  • More Dark Numenroian units
  • More units connected with wolfs like: werewolfs for example (pleas, give them great skills <3)
  • Barrow-wights[- they should be more regular units for Angmar/list]
    • More units connceted with Gundabad or Gram Mountain
    Heors:
    I like Angmar heros but the should have some changes:
    • Witch KIng- more ofensive skills
    • Morgomir- he should be delated or change to look more like a Nazgul. And he should have new skills
    • Rogash- he is okay
    • Hwaldar- more skills
    • Karsh- new look, and new skills
    Ther should be more heros for Angmar like Gulzar or Helegwen from Edain Mod.


    Thats all for now. Sorry for my english.

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Lostir
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Lostir » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:04 pm

I basically agree with your post.
Malorn trees should have been changed. I mean elves should have some kind of farms too. And Malorn Trees should be something like Elvish statue

The Mirror of Galadriel should not be like healing well anymore. It should be only some kind os special building for Galadriel only, and elves should have they own healing well.
That is in particular true. Both of them are made a lot less unique in the game than they are in lore.
Here I must say that elvish herso are mostly okay, but again ther are some important characters, which should be added to this game:

Cirdan

Elledan and Elrohir

Rumil and Orophin
What about Celeborn and Galadriel as a regular hero? They are both a lot more important than the ones above.
Here is very big mistake. In movie we see that Saruman was usnig only Uruk-hai and Wild humans. But army of Isengard in book was much more mixed. He used traitors from Rohan, goblins from Misty Mountains, half-orcs, bandits and mercenaries. And I would like to see more units like this.
Seeing more of those units in one way or the other would be great.
Here almost everything is okay. I would replaced half-trolls and give here some stronger orc's or urks. They should have wargs units too. And I really like one idea which I saw at third part of the Hobbit movie (I don't speak about giant goblins and this too op trolls!). I mean here this scene of fight bettwen Dwalin and Thorin vs goblins. They see all bunch of small, strange looking goblins. They called them "mercenary goblins" or something like that. And I think it's good idea to add them.
Just calling the Half-Trolls Uruks and giving them a slightly different design would already be a great fix.
Those mercaneries were from Goblin Town. Don't know how that makes sense that they sent mercaneries, but I'm all for adding Goblin Town units.
Azog- he should be like at the movie. Big, strong and dangeros. I remember that in oryginal BFME I almost never used him. So he need new look and new skills.
I'm not that sure about Azog, he was already a weird pick in the vanilla games, as he completly put Goblins out of time, and the character of the Hobbit is extremly boring and all cliché, though I wouldn't have anything against his design. As long as Bolg will be included too and not get that stupid design from the movies. He was the leader of the Battle of the Five armies!

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Solethria
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Re: Replacing/Reworking BFME units?

Post by Solethria » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:27 pm

I'm seeing a lot of cool feedback here which i may respond to in more detail later on. But for now I want to say that this topic is really meant from a game design perspective. Meaning, if you propose a rework/replacement it's very important that you think about what effects that has on the game and the factions. I see WerewolfMoonHunter proposing a lot of new heroes and units, but it all comes from a lore standpoint and I see no gameplay taken into consideration. It should be both ways. Let me give an example (hypothetical):

Let's say I didn't like Half-troll Marauders because they were lore-unfriendly (I've seen that reason sometimes now). I strongly believe they can be replaced so I propose a change. Let's say stronger goblins like WerewolfMoonHunter said or make them a single troll unit like one of Lostir's suggestions. Alright now the lore part is fixed, but what happens to the shift in gameplay? Here is what function the half-trolls had within goblins and the game:
  • They were the only infantry unit that is immune to trample (unique differentiation). For that same reason, the Marauders were also the only pike unit that don't deal revenge damage to cavalry.
  • They were above average infantry, compensating for the weak low cost goblin spam troops. A must for late game survivability for goblins.
  • They were not affected by the leadership of Gorkil, balancing the power level that Gorkil has with his leadership and compensation for their strength.
  • They were not considered a troll unit, meaning you could not use a 'dominate troll' hero ability to take control of them. Also, it made them not weak to pikes.
What happens when I replace them with stronger goblins?
  • The game and goblins in particular loses one unique interaction: infantry immune to trample and pike without revenge damage.
  • The better goblins would have to be really strong to be able to compete with late game (how will you balance that? More units in a horde? Make them cheap? Make them just really strong even though they're still goblins?)
  • Gorkil will become stronger, now affecting all infantry of goblins with his leadership. Is this a problem?
  • Will the replacement be a pike unit? Otherwise goblins will have no pikes in their arsenal.
What happens when I rework them into a single stronger troll unit?
  • All of the above (except Gorkil part)
  • A single (half)troll unit should really be considered a troll by the design definition in the game. Meaning it will now be affected by the 'dominate troll' ability. Is that really a problem? Maybe, maybe not.
  • Goblins will now have yet another troll unit, since they already have the cave troll and mountain giant. Making the stronger units for goblins really one-sided and weak to pikes.
Just some examples. If you use this approach your ideas will become more valid. It will I'm sure give them a higher chance of being considered for the game. These are the types of questions I think a developer must answer when considering anything.
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