Some Suggestions

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Feanor
Posts: 7

Some Suggestions

Post by Feanor » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:02 am

First of all, congratulations and thanks for working on this project.
I'm a big fan of Tolkien and RTS games, and I've been looking/waiting for a new Middle Earth RTS game for years.
Now my two questions:
1. Have you considered making the factions from scratch, not just based in BFME/BFME2 (which happens in the Third Age) but in the wider imaginary set by The Silmarillion?
That would allow you to drop the "Isengard" and "Mordor" factions (which are redundant and pretty much the same) and maybe create two more different factions with units from the Silmarillion bestiary.
If you think about it, that's what Electronic Arts did when they designed BFME2. They found that Gondor and Rohan would be too redundant and merged both factions in the "Men of the West", to give space to Elves and Dwarves.
2. Have you looked at or have taken ideas from the previous game called "War of the Ring" from Liquid Entertainment?
It's an underrated game imo, different from BFME, more similar to the Warcraft franchise. That game didn't have much commercial success but featured some interesting concepts and units.
For example, it featured stealth units and detectors (like Starcraft), elven mages (light bearers), beornings which were basically shapeshifting druids, Goblin Slavemasters which acted like Zerg Overlords in starcraft (increasing population cap), two troll units: (one melee, heavily armored with splash damage, and one ranged: the stone thrower, a sigue unit also with splash damage) wraiths which acted as detectors. They also made a distinction between Uorns and Ents. Uorns where a tier 3 unit, but Ents were an "ultimate" unit, that required to spend fate points. (The Evil side had Balrogs on the other hand)

Three more suggestions:
-You should include concepts from the Hobbit's Battle of the Five Armies: the Dwarven "Ram Riders" where pretty cool and much better than the ugly Battle Wagons from BFME2. Also Thranduil's mount was pretty cool.
-Please make magic have a more important role in the game. A boring thing about the LOTR movies is that we didn't get to see much magic from the Istari (Gandalf and Saruman) nor from Galadriel. The Hobbit movies showed a little more in the fight of the white Council vs Sauron and the Nazgul.
That was a cool thing from the War Of The Ring from Liquid, that they introduced the Elven Lightbearers which were basically a ranged sigue unit, like a mixture of a High Templar and a Dragoon from Starcraft. Beornings were also a very cool concept.
-The Silmarillion and the Tolkien Bestiary are a cool source of concepts and units:
Here are some suggestions:
-Wraiths
-Great Eagles
-Fellbeasts / Wyverns (don't be afraid to introduce flying units)
-Dragons
-Lycanthropes (Shape shifting evil units) from the first age
-Vampires (also from the first age)

Finally here's a personal idea:
It would be cool if the game played around the light and darkness. That it had a night and day cycle, (like most open world games like Zelda or World of Warcraft) but that it had an influence in the game and strategy. For example, the evil factions could have a bonus if they fight at night. Some units could even have stealth that works only at night. The good factions could have a bonus if they fight at the light of the day. Some magic units could have spells to "bring light in the darkness" (to give a bonus to good units at night, or to cancel the evil units bonus) while other units could have a spell or aura to create darkness even at sunlight. ("In the land of Mordor where shadows lie") Remember the darkness and the cold from the Battle of Winterfell of Game of Thrones?. That's what i'm talking about: a darkness spell cast at night to create even more darkness!

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BlackDouglasOK
Posts: 80

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by BlackDouglasOK » Sun Jun 14, 2020 4:52 am

Reforged is gonna be based on bfme2 and maybe angmar factions, third age only, making new factions is hard especially without previous groundwork that would be first age factions. I agree that Rohan and Gondor are better merged, but Mordor and Isengard are very different.
BFME already has those concepts from Liquid's WotR: stealthy rangers and elves, troll toggle weapon, angmar sorcerers, fog of war and stealth reveal (palantir, farsight, crebain), powerfull unit summon (balrog, dragons, ents, eagles, wyrms, werewolves). Beorn is planned as one of those summons and I have suggested huorns as wild creeps like goblins, trolls and wargs that appear in the map.
-Battle Waggons is an awesome more unique cavalry, they will probably will have Rams pushing the cart.
-Many heroes and units skills and most of the spellbook are basically magical powers
BFME weather are magical powers that give bonuses in battle: Cloud break, Darkness, Freezing rain

Feanor
Posts: 7

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Feanor » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:31 am

Image

You can't leave them out of the game. That's the regular dwarven cavalry in the updated "canon" set by Peter Jackson's Movies which is basically the main design source of BFME and BFME 2.

I know the Battle of The Five Armies was released after BFME and BFME 2, but the Hobbit happens during the third age and before LOTR, so there's no reason to not include them in the game, unless you want to stick tightly to the original game which in my opinion would be a huge mistake.

Without them, the dwarven faction would feel incomplete to what most people have seen in the same movies are your source material.

If that doesn't convince you, think about this:
If BFME 2 was released after the Battle Of the Five Armies, I think we could agree that Electronic Arts would have chosen those Rams over the Battle Wagon as the Dwarven Cavalry.

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Lostir
Posts: 204

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Lostir » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:25 pm

I don't think they would have choosen the rams. The rams are just another kind of cavalry unit as there already enough in the game.
The battlewagons are iconic and unique and where even in the movies.

Feanor
Posts: 7

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Feanor » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:59 am

The battlewagons are not cavalry. They serve the purpose of cavalry in BFME 2, But I don't think a real army would change all their riders for using just battlewagons. In fact, In the Battle of the Five Armies you can barely see 3 or 4 Battle Wagons, but more than a hundred of Dwarves riding rams. I'm not saying you should replace the wagons for the rams, but that you should make the ram riders the default cavalry. Battle Wagons would be interesting if they were pulled by more than just one ram (In the movie they are pulled by 6) It would also be interesting if you could load units on them. Even ranged units like Archers or Axethrowers.
Anyway, I see too much nostalgia here. You guys seem to want to just replicate the game as it was, with a few additions, and don't seem to be really open to ideas that could change the original design of the game.

Image

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Lostir
Posts: 204

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Lostir » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:57 am

I wouldn't be really going by the Battle of the Five Armies when talking about military tactics.
Anyway, I see too much nostalgia here. You guys seem to want to just replicate the game as it was, with a few additions, and don't seem to be really open to ideas that could change the original design of the game.
The problem is that your goal isn't the changingn of the game design but the inclusion of a unit seen in the movies. And doing that without any considerations about the game design.
Giving dwarves a normal cavalry unit would make them just more similar to other factions, instead of making them more unique which should happen when changes are going to be made compared to the vanilla game.

Feanor
Posts: 7

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Feanor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:14 pm

I see 3 axes of considerations when you add a new unit to the game.

1. The concept ifself: If it "conceptually" fits the faction in which you are planning to add it. I think we have nothing to discuss here. Rams are part of the dwarven imaginary (they even pull the Battlewagons) and Ram riders are part the Battle of The Five Armies, which is part of the cannon.
I wouldn't be really going by the Battle of the Five Armies when talking about military tactics.
Why not? The people behind the two trilogies is the same. Suggesting The Hobbit trilogy is not suitable to draw concepts from it, is just arbitrary.
One thing you have to consider is that there wasn't enough dwarven material in the LOTR trilogy. Besides Gimli, the EMPTY Moria, and the 2 or 3 dwarves seen in the council of Elrond, we didn't get to see much of the Dwarven culture in the 9 hours long trilogy. Electronic Arts had to come up with their own concepts, because they didn't have enough source material from the movies.
The Hobbit trilogy instead, is THE trilogy about dwarves. There's a lot of material there. If the Hobbit would have been released before BFME2, it would have hugely influenced it, EA would have had lots of concepts to draw from those movies. And the Ram Riders are part of those concepts.
To not include Ram riders would have been as silly and weird as to have not included warg riders.

2. The game balance: this is a valid and very important consideration, but it shouldn't stop you from taking risks. Balance has a solution. Otherwise, you would have to keep the game as it was. Unless...

3. You want to keep the game true to the original. That's is also valid, but unfortunate and silly in my opinion. Assembling a team with talented people to develop a videogame is very hard, but you managed to do it. Restrict such talented team to merely copy something others did, like 16 years ago, is a huge waste. BFME was a good game, but it wasn't a masterpiece, nor the definitive middle-earth RTS game. I thought you guys were open to suggestions, and that included new units and concepts. But If you are closed like an oyster to include a unit that was seen by hundreds in one of movies, I can't think how closed you would be to other more crazy or daring ideas that were not even seen in the movies.

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BlackDouglasOK
Posts: 80

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by BlackDouglasOK » Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:32 am

Battle Waggons were also part of Battle of the Five armies Dain's host, his most powerfull unit actually. The movie features cripled trolls, troll ram and troll catapult, should they be added? NO. Battle of the Five Armies is a ridiculous cgi fest with low military strategy and tactics bases.
What ram riders as a replacement or just adition would bring? its just another cavalry, probably they would be slower and tougher, but trampling and getting upgrades as any other of the faction cavalries. BW in the other hand are more fun, unique and appealing, and poteantially better with Reforged in charge.

Feanor
Posts: 7

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by Feanor » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:38 am

Battle of the Five Armies is a ridiculous CGI fest
Really??? you have problems with CGI in 2020? 95% of the LOTR Trilogy and the Hobbit Trilogy is pure CGI, we are discussing a videogame and you are bringing CGI as an argument against something?
Battle Waggons were also part of Battle of the Five armies Dain's host, his most powerful unit actually.
There are only 3 or 4 Battle Wagons in the movie and you don't even see them fighting. Ram Riders on the other hand:
Image

It's disappointing to find out the people behind this project is this closed to suggestions. As I said before I'm not bringing something crazy into the table, just a unit that can be seen by hundreds in the movie. If you are this closed to this idea, Jesus guys... Good luck with your project... It's no longer a project I which I feel motivated to contribute.
Last edited by Feanor on Wed Jun 24, 2020 5:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

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BlackDouglasOK
Posts: 80

Re: Some Suggestions

Post by BlackDouglasOK » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:14 am

We (Lostir and me) are not devs, just part of the community like you. But is not worth discussing how greedy was The Hobbit or in your terms how BW decapitate ogres but ram riders are just hundreds and thats why they are so important to the dwarves...

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